The following post regards an interpersonal conflict between
me and a certain young woman. I wouldn’t
write about it here, but it seems that a number of people have been led to
believe or say things about my conduct and intentions in this conflict that simply
are not true. While these allegations
were made privately, the fact that they were made to multiple people at
multiple times by multiple people
makes them public for all practical purposes.
I therefore thought it appropriate that I publically set the record
straight.
Nevertheless, the internet is a very public place, so I won’t be getting into details or naming
names. If you’ve heard about this
conflict, you already know who the players are.
If you don’t, you don’t need to, and probably don’t need to be reading
this post anyway.
Originally, when I started this post, it got long and
complicated pretty fast, so I’m going to try something new and do it in outline
form, which hopefully will make it easier to follow and mercifully brief.
The Allegations:
1. Pursuing a romantic relationship against
her wishes.
a. Details: This is the most frequent of
the allegations, coming up at every turn from the young woman and her
supporters for three years running. It
is used to justify a lot of the measures taken against me.
b. Background: About three and a half
years ago, I was romantically interested in this young woman and asked her out
twice, the second time coming only after she herself suggested we seriously
consider a romantic relationship. Both
times she refused. She has since made it
abundantly clear that she does not desire a romantic relationship with me ever.
For the last three years, I attempted to pursue a purely platonic
relationship, but her inability to believe this was my intention lead to constant
miscommunications, fights, and—six months ago—the final dissolution of our
friendship. Now, the fighting has spread
into mutual friendships, which she sees as also being used to pursue her
romantically and she has accordingly taken steps to remove me from these
relationships.
c. Defense:
i.
Lack
of pursuit: I have not spoken to, or attempted to speak to, or approached
the young woman in six months. Before
that time I had attempted no romantic advance on her in two and a half years.
ii.
Denial
of pursuit: I have publically and privately, verbally and in writing,
explicitly and implicitly, repeatedly for years denied that I am pursuing a
romantic relationship with this young woman or that it is my intent to do so.
iii.
Lack
of intent: I have no intention of being in a relationship with this young
woman. For me to even be able to
contemplate such a relationship as a future possibility would require massive
changes in our personalities, beliefs, and priorities that I cannot honestly
see as plausible given the current circumstances.
2. Arguments to prove, despite the above
evidence, that I am pursuing a romantic relationship with this young woman.
a. I had a spiritual experience that compels
me to pursue her romantically/makes romantic pursuit inevitable
i.
Background:
Three and a half years ago, I had a spiritual experience where I believe God
revealed that this young woman and I had a future together. Some six months later, while our relationship
was still young and we hadn’t completely ruled out the possibility of a romantic
relationship, I foolishly shared this experience with this young woman. As a reward, it seems I have earned her
eternal distrust. While I still struggle
to make sense of the experience, I continue to believe that it was real and was
from God.
ii.
Details:
Because I continue to believe in the experience, the accusation is that it is
constantly in the back of my mind directing my actions toward a particular end:
a romantic relationship with this young woman.
iii.
Defense:
1. Making God’s will happen: The
experience did not come with instructions to pursue this young woman. Therefore, pursuing a romantic relationship
with her would not, in my understanding (which is the understanding most likely
to direct my actions, after all) constitute obedience to God, but a human
effort to take His will into our own hands.
It would not be an act of faith, like Abram following God to Canaan, but
of doubt, like the conception of Ishmael.
I do not want to be ruled by doubt, but faith: therefore I am not
attempting and have not attempted to take this romantic relationship into my
own hands and make it happen.
2. Just because God says it doesn’t mean we
want it: Just because I had and believe this experience does not mean that
my own will, feelings, and judgment are somehow magically overridden. I have very, very serious reservations about
this young woman as a fellow Christian and a friend, to say nothing of a
romantic partner. I cannot see myself in
a relationship with her. I cannot feel
romantic love for her. My spiritual
experience does not change or negate any of these things.
3. Counter-example: The young woman’s own
experience: About eight or nine months after my spiritual experience, the
young woman reportedly (by her own confession to me and others) had a spiritual
experience of her own wherein, during prayer, she believed that God
emphatically told her a romantic relationship with me was His will for
her. While it’s arguable that she did
briefly try to make His will happen by raising the question of a romantic
relationship before she was prepared to actually enter one, she is doing so no
longer (unless, of course, she is seeing a lack of romantic relationship as His
will, in which case, she is undoubtibly trying to make that happen by every
available means). It is also of note
that this experience did not override her feelings or judgment, and—while it
may have been in the back of her mind—it did not launch her into a romantic
pursuit of me. If her spiritual
experience does not/did not compel her to seek a romantic relationship with me,
why should mine be any different?
b. Attraction compels me to pursue the young
woman romantically
i.
Defense:
1. Self Control: This allegation is highly
offensive to me. It assumes, basically,
that I cannot control myself and must romantically pursue anyone I find
attractive. Yes, I find the young woman
attractive. No, I am not interested in a
relationship—romantic or otherwise—with her.
I am a man, not an animal. I am
not ruled by feelings.
2. Counter-Example: I have a female friend
of nine years with whom I am still fairly close today. At one time during late high school and
freshman year of college, I was attracted to her to the point of being
infatuated with her. She wasn’t
interested, though, and so we decided to be just friends. My feelings of attraction persisted for
several years after this decision, but I never betrayed my friendship. I never tried to make it a romantic
relationship. I never pursued the girl
romantically. Instead, I was the best
platonic friend to this girl that I could be.
Toward the end, she was comfortable enough in the platonic relationship
that she would tell me about her crushes and ask me for boy advice, and I gave
her good advice even though I was still
attracted to her at the time! If I
can be that mature in high school, surely I am capable of basic self-control
today.
c. I have crossed boundaries with this young
woman, constituting prima facie
romantic pursuit
i.
Nature
of the boundaries:
1. Not Biblical, legal, or cultural: The
boundaries are not described in the Bible, constituted by law, or mandated by
the culture…nor have I done anything in the past two and a half years which
would be considered to constitute romantic pursuit in the eyes of any of the
above.
2. Not physical: I have not been in
physically intimate or abusive contact with the young woman at any time. I do not even think I have physically touched
her at all. This should all go without
saying, but I will state it anyway, because the gravity with which the young
woman and her supporters make their allegations (especially this one) and the
actions they propose would almost lead one to believe this is a sexual abuse
situation when nothing could be further from the truth.
3. Not romantic: These boundaries did not
relate to anything romantic. The most
intimate thing banned: sharing prayer requests—something I have never done with
anyone out of romantic interest or intent.
While the young woman claims that all of these things now constitute
romantic pursuit to her, she has admitted with regard to several (including the
above example) that she had no previous feelings about them.
4. Exclusive to this relationship: These boundaries have all always been private
and applied only to the interactions between myself and this young woman, never
to any other relationship, increasingly differentiating this relationship from
all others over time. That is to say,
these boundaries were never designed to protect her heart so much as they were
designed to direct, control, and harm our friendship. Otherwise, they would have doubtlessly found
wider application (her heart is/was not exclusive to our friendship).
5. Not Consensual: These boundaries were
set up unilaterally by the young woman.
Very rarely was there any opportunity given for discussion when a new
boundary was proposed by the young woman.
In most cases, when I was informed of the boundary, the young woman held
it to be in effect immediately and not negotiable, regardless of how it might
affect me or the relationship. In some
cases (as with the most recent “boundary crossing”) I was only informed of the
boundary after I had crossed it.
Boundaries could be set or removed only by the young woman and she exercised
this power frequently and with little or no regard for the effects on myself or
the relationship. While healthy
boundaries to protect oneself may be assertive, this is extreme. Add to this the fact that, as above, the
boundaries were more about control of the relationship than anything else, and
the situation becomes more twisted. In
healthy relationships, both parties have input into the direction and course of
the relationship and are willing to discuss, negotiate, and inform one another
of their convictions, but here one party used barriers to seize exclusive
control.
6. Not reasonable: Many of these
boundaries are absurd, such as one which was put in place saying that we could
still be friends but could not communicate by email (when, at that time and for
the foreseeable future, email was our only means of communication)—effectively
saying that we could keep our friendship only if we killed it—which is a
contradiction in terms. Other bizarre
boundaries included not addressing her directly in any group conversation (upon
her joining the group, I could not say, “Hey, [name], how was your day?” I
could only ask about her day if I asked, “So everybody, how was your day?” as a
general question), not emailing her directly (email would only be accepted if
it was CCed to a member of church leadership), and not attending group
activities with her and our mutual friends (group size: 15-20 at least) or
hanging out with said friends outside of activities where she is present (this
last may not be from her, but one of her advocates has repeated it several
times). While all were raised under the
name of preventing romantic pursuit, none of them have the slightest thing to
do with it.
7. Not healthy: These boundaries have not
tended to nurture a safe and healthy relationship, but have instead tended to
destroy, polarize, and consume the relationship (and now other
relationships). In specific, some of
them have been used in particularly unhealthy ways…
a. …as Avoidance: Boundaries have frequently
been erected solely as a means to avoid dealing with a conflict or
miscommunication in a constructive and healthy manner. A general pattern emerged in which a problem
would arise due to a miscommunication or misunderstanding and immediately the young
woman would put a boundary in place blocking all the easiest means of
communication, making the conflict impossible to resolve until a round-about
way was found to communicate and clear up the misunderstanding, after which it
often happened that the boundaries would be removed. Their purpose, therefore, was not to protect
her from feeling pursued at all but to allow her to avoid dealing with the
conflict. Their effect was to perpetuate
and enflame the conflict while straining, damaging, and eventually demolishing
the friendship (avoidance always does this: it is pretty much never a healthy
way to deal with conflict).
b. …as Parroting: Many boundaries were
erected immediately after the young woman talked with one figure or another in
the leadership of the church we both attended (we are not talking pastors, but
Bible study leaders and youth pastors with no formal training or selection process
and, at most, a few years age difference from us). This church has struggled with authoritarian
leaders to this day and many of its members and leaders (including this young
woman) tend to overemphasize the importance and role of church leaders. Its leadership style has been referred to by
critics as “cult-like,” and sadly with accuracy in at least some respects. It is therefore concerning that the young
woman has chosen to adopt a number of barriers with little or no forethought
based solely on leadership input rather than any feelings or decisions of her
own. This becomes especially unhealthy
when one adds in the fact that the leadership has had a vested interest in the
conflict resolving in a certain way (they have had and admitted problems with
being too controlling of romantic and non-romantic relationships among their
members) and that at least one leader (from whom came several of the young
woman’s barriers) lost his position and was rebuked by the church’s pastor for
taking sides in and perpetuating our conflict.
ii.
Crossing
Boundaries, Reasons: The above described boundaries were crossed by me,
but, given their true nature, I do not think any argument that this constitutes
prima facie romantic pursuit can be
seriously entertained. When one additionally
considers the reasons why the barriers were crossed, the argument becomes
indefensible.
1. Out of Ignorance: Due to the impetuous
and unilateral way in which the young woman erected and changed barriers, on
more than one occasion (including my most recent “infraction”: crossing a boundary forbidding me to come to a large gathering of mutual friends and others, which I was aware of only as something the leaders thought best in an information vacuum, not something the young woman had formalized as a personal boundary) I was held
guilty of crossing a boundary when I was unaware of its existence.
2. Out of protest: It happened
occasionally (but not often), that I would flirt with or deliberately cross a
boundary just to protest its unfairness.
This did not happen very often at all, probably only a handful of times,
and the boundaries were invariably minor and completely unrelated to romantic
pursuit.
3. Out of need: Most frequently, I crossed
boundaries because I was of the opinion that it was vital for her or the
friendship that I do so and did not see another way of accomplishing what
needed to be done. For example, three months
ago I moved back to the same city where she lives, a move I had been openly
planning for over two years for reasons unrelated to her presence (convenience
of travel, work, and housing availability, proximity to other friends, familiar
setting, etc). However, I and several
mutual friends believed firmly that the young woman, if surprised by my move,
would immediately assume that I was there to pursue her romantically and take
some kind of drastic action. Therefore,
although the last-established “boundary” blocked all possible direct or indirect
communication between us, I defied it and sent her an email informing her of my
immanent move and its true reasons, assuring her it had nothing to do with
me. As a consequence, it is my opinion
and that of mutual friends that a great deal of needless drama and stress on
the young woman’s part was avoided.
iii.
Accusations
relating to crossing boundaries:
1. I have broken my promises to the young
woman
a. My broken promises: I take my word very
seriously, but not so seriously I will willingly stand by and see someone get
hurt so that I can keep my promise. This
is because I love my friends more than I love my pride or reputation. If I did promise to respect a boundary and
later crossed it, it was invariably a case of crossing “out of need” as above. However, in the majority of cases, I never
promised to respect a boundary or gave any kind of consent to it at all.
b. Her broken promises: There were several
occasions where the young woman made promises to me to value, maintain, or
uphold our friendship, only to break them at the first sign of conflict for
purely selfish reasons of either avoiding dealing with a problem or protecting
herself against a feared (but never real) threat.
c. Comparison: While two wrongs don’t make
a right, it is informative to compare how and when each of us was willing to
renege our word. Such comparison justly
raises the question of why I am
confronted with “consequences” for my “broken promises” while she is not.
2. I have broken the young woman’s trust
a. See Above: The situation with broken
trust, is, at first glance, so similar to that of broken promises that the
answers can be the same.
b. Trust? On the other hand, once one
moves past the already-covered ground of promises, it becomes hard to see where
trust could have been broken or betrayed in the friendship. In many cases, the young woman did not put
trust in me at all, substituting barriers instead. I do not see how it is possible to violate a
trust the other party will not extend in the first place.
Alternative Explanation: I conclude, based on the above, that it is
not plausible or reasonable to see me as pursuing this young woman
romantically. But the accusations had to
have come from somewhere. Below is a
plausible explanation of their origins and why some parties, including the
young woman, may feel very strongly that they are true even when all the
evidence is to the contrary. Namely that
emotional-purity legalism can account for the observed fears
of the young woman and her reactions.
1.
Emotional
purity is known to cause people to perceive romantic pursuit in unreasonable
places and stunt or destroy platonic relationships
a.
Joshua
Harris: Joshua Harris is popularly known as the father of the emotional
purity movement and is, at the least, one of the most well-known figures in the
movement, popularizing it in his bestselling book I Kissed Dating Goodbye.
Nevertheless, he has preached a sermon titled “Courtship Shmourtship”
which warns of some of the dangers of emotional purity when it is taken too far.
Among these is a tendency (which he specifically addresses in women) to
see every action of a member of the opposite sex as a romantic advance
regardless of what the action is or whether it is intended as such. He also commented on the dearth of platonic relationships
in his church due to legalism in emotional purity.
b.
Logical
Implications when Emotional Purity and Legalism meet: Emotional purity
states, in a nutshell, that one’s emotions and romantic feelings before
marriage should be as closely guarded as one’s sexual purity. It directly relates the two and relies upon
many parallels between them. While the
validity of such a comparison is beyond the scope of this post, it should at
least be clear that when emotional purity is approached legalistically, it will
result in the same sorts of things that occur where sexual purity is approached
legalistically. Where sexual purity is
approached legalistically, Christian cultures down through the ages have often
branded non-promiscuous behaviors as sinful and sexual (ex: Baptists and
dancing, extremely modest forms of dress being rigorously enforced). In extreme cases, it becomes clear that there
is no actual link between the “sin” and sexual purity and that instead accusations
revolve around power, control, and the need to assuage one’s own conscience by
appearing virtuous (such as the case where a man accused a woman of “sitting
seductively” and “causing” him to “stumble into lust” when in fact she was very
modestly dressed and sitting normally…and he was later discovered to be a
sexually abusive man trying to blame his lust on others; of course, accusations
have also be leveled as a part of power-play between girls themselves or girls
and leaders, in order to control the other party, shame them, or simply make
oneself look better). Because the same
treatment is given in emotional purity to romantic advances as sexual advances,
the result when legalism is applied to the system will logically be the same. It should go without saying that this does
not create an environment conducive to platonic relationships.
c.
The Rock
vs the Navs: While the Rock (the campus ministry of the church we both
attended) embraced emotional purity by the private council of all its leaders
and the general consensus of its culture and was—by many accounts—legalistic at
times, the Navs, an unaffiliated campus ministry, did not. In the Rock, few platonic relationships
formed and none reached very great depth.
Stories of forbidden (by leaders) or unwanted romantic pursuit were
common and usually revolved around things which would not ordinarily be seen as
romantic. In the Navs, a great many
platonic relationships flourished and many had both depth and strength. I have never heard a story of unwanted or
forbidden (by leaders) romantic pursuit taking place in the Navs in all my
years there as a member and a leader. It
is also worth mentioning that whenever romantic pursuit was mentioned, it was
overtly romantic actions and certainly romantic intentions (asking out on
dates, giving flowers, hugs, etc).
Again, one of the chief differences between these environments was the
grip of emotional purity and legalism on one and not on the other.
2.
Emotional
purity legalism is known to be a problem in the church and college ministry of
which we were a part
a.
Confessed
by leadership: during my early discussions with various leaders, emotional
purity concepts came up and were treated in a legalistic fashion. Confronting church leadership about my
experiences later, there was a general consensus that, while a legalistic
approach of emotional purity was not taught, it was nonetheless prevalent in
the church’s culture.
b.
Confessed
by members: a number of current and former members of the church and
college ministry have told me about experiences and struggles they had with
legalistic emotional purity in the group, with pressure coming either from
other members or from leaders. It is a
common and almost universal story (many people have had problems with the
group, and the odds are that if they have had a problem at least part of it has
been in this area).
c.
Experienced
myself: Outside of my interactions with the young woman, I have had a
number of other experiences where the legalistic application of emotional
purity led to conflict within the college ministry.
3.
The young
woman and the leaders who guide her are known adherents to legalistic emotional
purity.
a.
Leaders
addressed me from emotional purity: Whenever I had a conversation with
leaders about my situation with this girl, they addressed me from an
emotional-purity standpoint and couched their answers in the language of
emotional purity (“guard your heart,” “guard her heart,” “don’t cause her to
stumble [into romantic feelings—which are not a sin for a single young woman to
have outside of the logic of emotional purity],” etc).
b.
The young
woman reported leaders addressing her from emotional purity: Often, when
the young woman would share what leaders had told her, some aspect of emotional
purity would be mentioned. For instance
she quoted one of her leaders as telling her that if she was not prepared to
marry me tomorrow she needed to have no emotional involvement with me at all
today (a classic legalistic stance on emotional purity).
c.
Leaders
confessed to legalism: At least one leader was rebuked for and confessed to
me taking a legalistic stance on emotional purity issues with regard to myself
and this young woman.
d.
The young
woman explained her actions in emotional purity terms: Later, as our
conflict began, the young woman would frequently cite emotional purity terms
and concepts to support and justify her actions (such as, “I can’t talk to you
in private any more because that’s not guarding my heart”). Note that while the phrase “guard your heart”
is common among Christians (originating, as it does, from the Bible) emotional
purity adherents take it from its Biblical context and from the context in
which other Christian groups us it and use it to mean “to keep oneself free from
emotional/romantic entanglements” rather than “to guard oneself against wicked
thoughts.”
e.
The young
woman confessed to legalism: On more than one occasion, the young woman
confessed to and apologized for legalism.
On other occasions she would try to justify an action using various
emotional purity terms while admitting that it was a little “legalistic.”
f.
The young
woman lacked any other framework with which to evaluate gender interactions:
Shortly before we lost contact for the last time, the young woman confessed
that, before me, she had never had a friend of the opposite sex. Practically speaking, this means that the
young woman had no idea how to handle platonic relationships, no framework in
which to evaluate what was going on in them.
Lacking such a framework herself, it seems evident that she turned to
leaders and adopted a framework of legalistic emotional purity from them.
Conclusion: According to Occam’s Razor, “the simplest
explanation is most likely to be true.”
Emotional purity and legalism are known to be huge factors in the young
woman’s understanding of and reactions to our friendship. They are known to be prevalent in the culture
of the church, and they are known to cause the observable symptoms: paranoid
accusations of romantic pursuit where none exists and a breakdown of platonic
relationships. Therefore, the simplest
explanation is that the young woman believes I am pursuing her and reacts as
she does because of her own internal beliefs in legalistic emotional purity,
rather than any actual romantic pursuit (which was ruled out above).
I'd like to address one statement you made: "In the Rock, few platonic relationships formed and none reached very great depth."
ReplyDelete....As a Rocker, I can assure you that this blanket statement is, thankfully, completely false. No matter how poorly the above events were handled, by this young lady, you, or others, please do not use that as an excuse to condemn the Rock as a whole.
Every college ministry struggles to find that perfect balance between legalism and licentiousness, and while the Rock definitely tends more towards legalism and the Navs toward licentiousness, that does not mean that there are no friendships between guys and gals in the Rock.
I'd argue that the Rock actually provides a safe place for brothers and sisters to form true friendships with depth and high standards of purity. And because of this, impure or legalistic relations are, in general, not caused directly by leadership or the Rock as a whole, rather by individuals who don't quite understand how to have friendships with both men and women, regardless of the advice and leadership of the church.
So please be careful about using one bad experience as an excuse to attack an entire group of people who love Jesus. We're all on the same team.
I seem to have touched a nerve and I apologize. I have had the great privilege of forming several platonic friendships with young women from the Rock, though admittedly none had much depth until after they or I or both of us had moved to the fringes of the group, whether willingly or unwilling. I didn't mean to say that such things were impossible, just comparatively rare.
DeleteI would like to think that we are all on the same team, but sometimes I wonder who we are all really following. Why does defence of an organization take priority over love of a brother or even the very unity of the members in this organization? Why does an organization even need defending against someone pointing out the very personal consequences of flaws admitted by the church publicly a month or so back on its blog, as well as over twenty years ago, flaws known to the leaders that simply continue to repeat? If pointing out that the Rock has a problem which isn't being dealt with and is harming the cause of Christ and contrary to the command He gave us is attacking them, are they really walking in the light at all? Are they acting as wise men, fearing the Lord, or as scoffers (Proverbs 9:8-10)? It is said that you will know them by their fruits, but sometimes the bag is so mixed its hard to tell.
We all speak and we all judge based on our own experiences. My experiences and those of many others have been that the culture of fear and judgment legalism fosters is not conducive to platonic relationships and can have lasting effects on the individual that hamper their relationships for years to come. I'm glad that your experience has been different and that this environment has helped you to form many deep bonds with members of the opposite sex, your co-laborers in Christ. I wish that more people had this experience, including this young woman who may have seriously hampered her ability to form and maintain relationships. I apologize if I offended you by speaking out of five years of ignorance.
I'm sorry if that came off as "defense of an organization" ...please let me clarify. Whenever you attack the Rock, you're attacking my brothers and sisters. Add to that the fact that the problem is certainly being dealt with (you might want to re-read the blog post about that), and the fact that the Rock is indeed fighting for the cause of Christ, and you might be able to see where I have a problem with you slandering us.
DeleteAnd just so you have fair warning, you'll never find a ministry that is perfect. Even so, I'm glad you're looking elsewhere for a place that tends more towards licentiousness. I hope that you find the answers you're looking for and can come to a peace with the whole situation.... And I hope that that will allow you to experience unity and focus on letting no "unwholesome talk come out of your mouth, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen." (Ephesians 4:29)
Thank you for your words. I appreciate that this matters to you, and I am glad of the love that it shows for your brothers and sisters in Christ…who are faithful members and leaders of the Rock, in any case. I wish more had this kind of love, and had it more broadly.
DeleteI have some questions about a few of the words you’ve chosen. First, you’ve used the word “licentiousness” twice now, once in each comment. It is, of course, the noun form of “licentious” meaning “promiscuous and unprincipled in sexual matters.” It is a long word, not one that comes readily to the keyboard (as I discovered firsthand when I included it in this reply), so surely it was selected deliberately. This word you applied in your first comment to your brothers and sisters in the Navigators parachurch ministry (saying it was their definite tendency), and in your second post you applied it to your brothers and sisters in whatever church I now sought (I assume you gained access to this post through Facebook, in which case you should be perfectly aware that this church was/is the Vineyard, though perhaps you intended a broader applications toward the churches others had also suggested, such as Hope Crossing Church and Iasis). May I ask how much time you’ve spent in these organizations, or perhaps how many members and former members have sat down and shared their experiences with you? How many cases of sexual license have come to light through your investigations and struggles? Please, do not hold this information back! Already one member of the Vineyard has messaged me asking that I open up these comments to anonymous replies because they feel the need to defend their church, but surely you can enlighten this poor soul to the atrocious acts you have seen committed behind closed doors. Please, bring forward your evidence so that we may all know the truth and walk the wiser for it!
Second, you have used the word “slandering” to describe what I am doing in my defense. You have also referenced Ephesians 4:29 to imply that it is “unwholesome talk” that is not “building others up according to their needs” and has no benefit for “those who listen.” Fitting words for any false charges leveled against your brothers and sisters in Christ, be they in the Rock or in churches and organizations far larger (though that’s something I’m sure you would never do)! Perhaps we can start with that first word, “slander”—it’s the basis for you saying my words are an “attack” in both cases, right? It’s an interesting word, because it means that something is both untrue and damaging. But so far, you have only claimed that a very brief part of my post was untrue, and its falsehood has not been conclusively proven because the claim to be falsified (as I understand it) is relative (less platonic relationships and less depth in the Rock than in the Navs) and so far neither of us have presented anything that even looks like a factual comparison, just stated our own opinions. Of the alleged untruthfulness of the rest, you have said nothing except again to state your opinion that leaders were not to blame for the situation described in the post and that they are working to change it based on their blog. I hope you are right on the latter, but public declarations of change have been made before by people in the movement higher up than two leaders who are no longer involved in college ministry. Of the former, well, I am not certain how many of the talks between myself and the various leaders and church pastors over the years you sat in on or were personally informed of later, so I suppose I shall just have to accept your opinion of their conduct on faith. I am not certain, however, that even this should be enough to dismiss the consistent testimony of nearly a dozen current or former members of the Rock who have borne witness of numerous counts of legalism they themselves experienced. What is your opinion?
DeleteIf we do not give your opinion so great a weight and were, for the sake of argument, to assume for a moment that the words of the post were true, where is the attack? Where are the unwholesome words the Bible forbids? Is it not written “as for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all?” It has been 22 years since the sins that were committed against myself and a dozen others with me (that I can be certain about) were publically confessed and repented of in the Statement of Errors and Weaknesses (Google it, first link; also available from the GCA homepage, though not nearly as easy to find). Is 22 years long enough to count as “persisting” or do we perhaps need to hold off and give them a good round number like 50? If I have done wrong for speaking harshly, I apologize. Surely Jesus spoke soft kind words to every person, as should I. That is what you read about Him in the Gospels, isn’t it?
You are right to say that I will never find a ministry or a group of Christians that is perfect: I hope only to find a group of Christians who are not content to remain imperfect or to use the grace they have received as a cloak for their evil acts and a shield against the light of valid criticism. I am surprised to find I have found unity already in a family of brothers and sisters in Christ that extends beyond the membership of a single organization, and I am grateful for their support during these difficult times and in responding to the unsympathetic words of someone who seems to see their family as much more limited.
Alright boys (A Rocker, if you are not male, I apologize). You are both clearly passionate about this topic; however, as both of you have mentioned, we are all meant to be on the same team. One of Christ's final commandments to his disciples (that's us) was to love one another as He loves us. The last time I checked, loving as Christ loves does not include mud slinging and rip each other's faces off. So let's take a step back and cool down.
DeleteBetter?
If you will allow me to state the facts as I interpret them, I shall proceed. A Rocker, you are offended by 2XA Ron's rejection of your church bodies pet doctrine. To the best of my knowledge, this doctrine is not spelled out anywhere in the Bible. Therefore, there is nothing Biblicaly wrong with rejecting this doctrine. Also, there is nothing spelled out in the Bible specifically against this doctrine to the best of my knowledge. Therefore, I can find no Biblical fault in holding to this doctrine. Thus, arming yourselves and trying to beat each other senseless over it is perhaps not the best way to approach the issue.
A Rocker, 2XA Ron has every right to reject legalistic emotional purity as does every other Christ loving church. I have never attended a church that practices legalistic emotional purity. None of the churches I have attended can honestly be described as licentious (word choice, it's important). I would appreciate it if you refrained from attaching that word to churches that do not follow legalistic emotional purity as doing so is slanderous (both untrue and damaging).
2XA Ron, I understand that this issue has hurt you deeply for many years. I know that you want to lash out when you believe that your well intended complaints are being brushed aside. However, using sarcasm to attack your opponent will not convince them of the correctness of your position nor will it cause them to rush to address your complaints. You have stated your case calmly and in great detail. A Rocker can take it or leave it. His comments lead me to believe that he has left it. Now it's your turn. If you have accomplished next to nothing in your attempts to edify this church in the past years, what good will one last argument do? So breathe in....
breathe out....
and give it to God. The members of the Rock are people who love God. They want to serve Him. You have discovered and wrestled with something that you believe is holding this church back. They have not listened to you. This is not an issue you can fix. God can fix this. Give it Him.
I apologize for my rudeness and sarcasm, A Rocker. I am tired of being hurt by this issue and tired of seeing other people, my friends and brothers and sisters in Christ, hurt by it too. I know I cannot change anything and I know I cannot stop other people from going through exactly the same things I experienced, as some of them probably are even now, and that frustrates me. It does not help much that whenever I or someone else speaks up about these sort of things we are dismissed as gossipers and slanders whose only interest is to tear down our brothers and sisters in Christ. Our real interest is to spare our brothers and sisters in Christ the pain we ourselves have felt and prevent the sabotage it causes to the great commission when the things we've experienced are allowed to go on behind closed doors--but so far I have met only one leader in the association who is willing to understand and respond with sympathy and his best efforts to right whatever may be wrong (John Hopler: I will not speak ill of him). That saddens me, as does the loss of my friends and the people I trusted.
DeleteNone of that excuses the way I addressed you, though. You make a valid point that unity and uplifting speech is important, but sometimes a sharp rebuke is the best thing you can do for a person, or a group of people (as the anonymous girl demonstrated...Jesus wasn't ashamed to speak harshly when it was called for either). What's happened to me and others at the Rock was wrong and no excuses suffice for it, but I'm genuinely glad that it hasn't been your experience--just don't think that it makes the experiences of others any less real and painful. While I can't share your optimism about the blog indicating progress, I do want it to believe it, and if you can, more power to you.
Aaron--thank you for your apology, I definitely forgive you and I apologize for not first taking the time to come to you with sympathy and compassion for what you went through. It must have been very painful and I'm sorry you were hurt by the church.... that's just not the way things should be.
DeleteAnd it’s true that we don’t fix things by standing on opposite sides of a chasm and yelling at each other. I would really like my purpose in writing this post to be to encourage unity. The Church can’t stand if its pillars of unity are being knocked down from the inside, but that’s just what Satan wants… and unlike with Samson, it’s not just him and Philistines who would get crushed if they fall. =P We really, truly, are on the same team. I would love for Rockers to feel free to go to other churches if that’s what they feel like God is leading them to for His mission, and I don’t gossip about or talk down the merit of other ministries in order to keep people in the Rock, present but stagnant. The best place for someone to grow might still be the Rock, but it might be somewhere else. (And I would like you to know that I have been involved with both Navs and Iasis in the past, but I don't feel like that gives me the license to do what you asked in giving proof of the weaknesses I've seen—especially since I love the people I've met there and there’s no way I’m going to try to make anyone think less of them). God is at work in and through all these ministries, and that is what’s important.
And I'd like to explain my word choice as that certainly touched a nerve, just like "legalistic emotional purity" did with me. My use of the word "licentious" came from the thought process that 1. The best word for the opposite of legalism is licentiousness, 2. No church is perfect or has a perfect balance between the two, 3. Thus if you're looking for a church that rejects legalism, licentiousness was the term that best matched the trend you seemed to be seeking, in tending away from legalism. I used this word choice because you didn't say “I want a church that’s slightly less legalistic” but you implied your wish to reject legalistic emotional purity completely. Licentiousness is simply the other side of the spectrum and is just as wrong as legalism, but churches will lean towards one or the other since we're never going to be perfect on this side of Glory. I hope that clears things up a little.
I truly appreciate your effort to spare your brothers and sisters the pain you felt, but I’m jealous for you to understand that there's nowhere you'll go where people aren't wronged without excuse. So long as you're sharing life with others in a ministry, you’ll find people who are messy to deal with, and we will hurt each other and cause heartache and many times that's how we grow… (Unless we let our hearts get calloused in order to try and live “pain-free” by refusing to open up and love people, but I hope that doesn’t happen.)
And if you receive nothing else I say, I’d like to exhort you to one thing: If you’re going to be in a different ministry, be THERE. Rather than dwelling in the past or trying to show others how wronged you were or how wrong the Rock is, love and serve God where you’re at. Seek His kingdom first. And I promise, peace and healing WILL come!
Well, thank you for your response. I know that unity is VERY important to God and my own perspective is that I have been fighting to restore or hold onto unity for three years at the Rock without success. I guess I also have a different perspective on criticism, as something that, if approached correctly, can help to grow rather than being a threat to unity.
DeleteIt was not my intention to offend by my choice of the words "legalistic emotional purity," I was simply trying to describe it as accurately as possible. Clearly it is emotional purity, and the people who practiced it confessed to being legalistic in it themselves (using that particular word) so I did not feel it was an inaccurate choice of words.
I would clarify, though, that I am not seeking a church on the other extreme. I realize that emotional purity tends to see itself in a contest with sexual license with no middle ground, but I do not believe this is accurate. I see emotional purity itself as an extreme and I seek a middle path of liberty and holiness.
I know that no person and no group is perfect, but I also know that the Rock isn't all there is and isn't even considered normal among other church groups. Other people get hurt in other chruches, it's true, but I have been surprised to find that the scale and commonness of hurt is something other churches and Christians consider unusual. While no truly safe place exists, I am convinced that there are safer places. I seek those, but above all, I seek to follow Christ.